How are European Data Center markets evolving? | Episode 2 - Live at KickStart Europe 2026

In this episode, Andy Davis is joined by co-host Pieter Schaap, Director at Soben (Part of Accenture) to explore how European data centre markets are evolving.   

Joining the conversation:  

JP Anten, Mainova Webhouse 

Edgar van Essen, Switch Datacenters  

Together, they discuss regional differences in market behaviour, evolving approaches to permitting, power and fibre, and how project development dynamics have changed over time.  

Recorded live at Kickstart Europe 2026 

Key Topics: 

• The future of sustainable data centers, emphasizing green heat reuse and renewable energy sources 
• Challenges and opportunities in expanding data center operations across Europe, especially in Frankfurt and Amsterdam 
• Strategies for talent acquisition, retention, and fostering entrepreneurial culture in a fast-moving industry 
• Impact of geopolitical shifts on sovereign clouds and international data trends 
• Innovative business models like third-party leasing, modular growth, and space-based data centers 

https://switchdatacenters.com/  

https://mainova-webhouse.com/  

https://sobencc.com/  

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

The data center industry is moving faster than ever, and behind the scenes some seriously smart people are making it all happen. Welcome to the Inside Data Center Podcast, where we dive into the stories, insights, and innovations driving real change across the industry. From hyperscale campuses to game-changing technologies, we're talking to the people shaping the future of digital infrastructure. Whether you live in Brieve Data Centers or just want to understand what's powering our connected world, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Hello and welcome to the Insight Data Center podcast, hosted by Andy Davis, and today I'm your co-host. My name is Peter Schaat. We have two great guests again on the podcast here at Kickstart Europe in Amsterdam. But before we go to our guests, Andy, what's your news of the day?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

The pressure of this question gets me every time. I'm trying to figure out I haven't got news of the day, but I'm gonna go into Galactic, SpaceX and XAI merging, or SpaceX acquiring XAI and the talk of data centers in space. So I'll be interested to hear people's opinions on on that later. Is it is it myth or is it actually gonna happen?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

So your tweets will go to the moon and back, I uh assume. Uh then our guests, welcome Edgar Van Essen, MD at uh Switch Data Centers. Please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, I'm uh Edgar Van Essen, uh I'm managing director of Switch Data Centers, which is an um a Dutch headquartered um sustainable data center operator and developer. And other than most other companies, we do the full stack from development all the way up to building it, designing it, and operating it. Uh 15 years of history, started as a retail co-location company, but went all the way up into wholesale, built the suit, and now only working for hyperscale plus, uh neo clouds, uh, and rapidly um developing one gigawatt of uh uh portfolio right now uh in the Netherlands and a little bit outside the Netherlands going international and then Jan Peter Alton, CEO at my Nova Webhouse.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

JP, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Thank you. Yeah, uh it's easier to call me JP than Jan Peter Anton. It's quite a long name, no. So it uh always reminds me that when uh you get kids, never give them a double name, just give them a short name. But that has nothing to do with me here. So um uh indeed I'm CEO of my Nova Webhouse. My Nova Webhouse is a joint venture between BlackBock and um um my Nova. So what we try to do is bring the power, the utility company, and the finance from our BlackBox side together to build in close collaboration data centers within the Frankfurt region, specifically in the Frankfurt region because MINOVA is a German Hessen uh utility provider, and they have the majority of the knowledge of a the municipality governmental landscape, and secondly, of course, they know where the power sits, and on the other hand, Blackwalk that brings in uh the money. Um, we are a relatively young company um started originally by MINOVA, later on Blackwalk joined, and we're now ramping up uh on uh fast growth. We have the first 30 megawatts almost ready, and we have this one pipeline into uh 200 megawatts.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Cool, great, thank you. A lot of megawatts to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Well, without a pipeline, and you're not in the business anymore.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Exactly. We have two Dutch guests, Andy. Um so one of the things that is interesting, especially because like Muslim Switch is like going international, JP, you're focused around the Frankfurt area. Give us a bit of a flavor, the difference between the Germans and the Dutch when it comes to the data center industry. Are we talking football now?

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Um look, first of all, it's always good that still in Europe a lot of Dutch leaders are involved in data central industry. I think it says a lot about um the Dutch culture, Dutch mentality, and the ease of cooperation with many different parts of Europe. And I think that it has historically always been that the Dutch were quite strongly represented. So is there a big difference between uh Dutch and Germans? Culturally, 100% yes. It is an um the German is a way more bureaucratic world, I think, than the Netherlands is. But there are also a lot of similarities. So the similarities are from a governmental perspective on data centers, is there's more and more push. Here in Amsterdam we have the consortium, and Frankfurt we have a huge lack of power. Uh we have a lot of mayors in Frankfurt that are pushing back on data centers. They're asking the same question: is it good for the population? Is it labor-intensive enough? Does it consume all the power that needs to go normally to the household? But but I think the good thing is we see the world turning and shifting again, and we see that there is a lot of interest in data centers and that we are able to convey the message better why data centers are really good for our society. So are there differences between the two countries? Yes, many, but also as many similarities, I think, uh, between the two.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

I think that the markets Amsterdam and Frankfurt are quite alike in the sense that there's shortage of power, shortage of uh permits. Everybody wants to be there, it's still clap. Um so we actually, Frankfurt and uh and Amsterdam ran into the same issues. You have to have something to offer back to society, um, which is green heat, uh which is not uh residual heat, by the way, but we call it green heat delivery, because it's a different product than if you have, for instance, industrial heat. So all the heat we create in the data center is coming from green PPAs, uh, wind at sea. So what we return back to society is green heat, and it has a different value to it because municipal networks actually will be heated, um, preferably CO2 neutral. So they don't want the gas plants heating that, they want green heat, and that's what we deliver, and that's one of the key messages that we use in developing. And I see the same thing in Frankfurt. There's a focus on on reuse of heat, uh, but then preferably green heat. It's all about sustainability mixed with data centers, tapping off heat. And I think it's the same topic.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

No, I I I fully I fully agree with you. Look, the topic of gas is uh is a difficult topic, not um uh why why is gas as a solution being provided? Uh because there's not sufficient power. So the majority of gas capacity um which is going to be built in the Frankfurt region as well, is bridging pound. Um, then the discussion about green, uh the discussion about waste heat. Yes, the Dutch government and all the mayors are really pushing on reusing heat, and we are doing that very actively. By the way, not just us, all companies in Germany are doing that.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

It's by law, Mar, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Correct, it is done by law. But you also sometimes have to put question marks around is it all good? You know, because in the end, yes, it's good, it's very sustainable, but sometimes the cost of bringing the uh do we use the heat to the outside world is bigger than just using uh normal grid capacity.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

So now we're near hitting interesting elements. What is the purpose? Why do you offer this back? We see that as as our DNA to do something back to society. If you're an American stopless and company, you do it for the returns only. So what are you? Are you um just a financial engine or are you just trying to do something good for society?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Which is we're we all have to run a business, so we all have to make sure that we are financially healthy. Of course, but you can combine it. That's that's the point that we try to make. If you can combine the business case with giving back to society, that is great. Uh considering the Frankfurt region, now we're talking about legislation that's been updated over the years. There's already a lot of uh hoops that you have to jump through in order to get a permit to be able to build. So that's almost coming together, whereby sustainability is becoming such a core part of your business that you don't really have to specifically focus on giving back to society because that's a given. You have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

But but I agree with what you say in a certain way is um for company it is a little bit about beliefs as well. Everybody will tell you the message that uh we go on a sustainable route, right? That you use green resources, green concrete, I don't know, solar panels, uh or carbon footprint, water usage, all the normal topics that come every day to the table. But it is do you really believe in it? Or do you do it because a law forces you to do it? And I think that point that you make, I I fully agree on. On the other hand, uh, I think your point is um a market is about buyers and sellers, isn't it? Uh so you can develop whatever you want, but if nobody wants to buy it because your price is too high, it doesn't make sense. You have to try to strike a balance, and I think that's what we're trying to do. We we are a very sustainable company, we are believing one of the most sustainable data center providers in in Germany, but we try to strike the balance because somebody needs to be able to pay the price of what you bring into the data center.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

But but you can be different in that sense. Uh, I know a lot of industries are using subcontractors or actually we chose to have the full system under own control, therefore, we are much more in control of our timelines and our costs. Uh, the savings we make with that, we can actually invest and still be uh price neutral compared to the others. So it's a matter of how much do you want to do outsource versus how much do you want to do in-house. Um and that is that is every company has a different decision. But we made the decision to do everything ourselves smartly, uh, using, of course, local subcontractors, and thereby still hitting the price marks, but being much greener and doing more stuff on top of it. That's a choice.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

And I think we've talked about it already today, but as you get more eyes on this industry, there's more eyeballs want to know what the industry is doing, there's more pressure to be sustainable because you've got that community engagement where they want to know what you're doing. So you need to really, I guess, really get your story to the mark, to the masses, in order for them to understand. Because, like you say, you could easily see uh a press release that says waste heat will be given back, but what's behind that?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah, well, but the word waste heat again. Let's stop using that, let's make it green heat because that's what we deliver. It's something else than waste heat.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Look, on the one end, you're right. Look, so you have probably a hundred questions that we sticking to the question. Well, in a certain point, you're right. Same um, yeah, you have to bring that message to society and convey that message much clearer, and therefore make sure that data centers are being perceived much more positively. But let's be realistic. All of us use data centers every day. So and and and I think it will take time for that message to be conveyed. I don't know if the population is the most uh important message. It needs to be messaged to the politicians and mainly to the EU, what the EU DCA does, what the local data center associations do. They need to group stronger together and at a certain point have a stronger message to the European decision makers because in the end, where data centers are going to be built in future, where the power is being given to those data centers. It can't be a local city decision anymore. It needs to be a decision that's being taken way higher up in the tree to be able to provide a sustainable future for Europe, European economy, to be a counterbalance against the United States.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

I think you're making all the right arguments. Every well-being thinking person in the industry understands this. But I think the written thing right where you have to manage is perception. Politicians have a certain idea, uh civil uh civil why civil servants, special ideas when they hear the word data center. I think the word is actually polluted. We should actually reinvent a word, that's why we call ourselves a green heat source. We and we do that by delivering data center services, but who cares? Uh we're actually nothing else than a green heater. We use electricity, uh, the servers of our customers turn it into green heat. That's what we deliver.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I hear you, Edgar, and I know you guys have been pretty disruptive in the market uh by you know doing deals with greenhouse uh uh providers and whatnot, by committing to a certain Joule output on average, which is unprecedented. We haven't seen that before. It's maybe done at but not at scale. So um that is something that you that you're uniquely positioned in, but it's in the Netherlands, similar to your organization setup.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Mark, parts of Germany, I think it's the same story. This this this business is going to become regularly normal. It's not considered uh best practice yet by American players who are very much financially driven, and they see it as a liability. Why should you add another liability? You already have many. Uh just delivering heat at a certain uh contract could indeed be a risk, but you could also see it as an opportunity. How is this scalable then? Well, scale um, of course, we don't uh commit to the full uh let's say uh output of the data center initially because we know we have to scale in. Customers will never be 100% using whatever they they have in the data center. So we have a certain threshold there, and we always deliver 30 degrees Celsius. We don't go up because then you start taking a risk. Um, of course, if if AI comes into your data center, you know the output temperature could be even higher, but you don't want to deliver that. So you have to manage the risk of the contracts that you close with uh with heat sources, um, and then it's doable.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Let's touch on a different topic. Um jokingly, uh, we call it the war on talent, so not the war on terror, but the war on talent. Uh with the big AI boom happening at the moment, with so many new developers surfacing, there is a lot of uh demand for data center talent. Switch, you guys work with in-house construction teams that run your businesses, but you're also now going international. How do you position yourself there?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Well, in the end, um we currently have uh 10 data centers in the planning. So with our own team, that will be difficult to do everything. So we need uh subcontractors, we need partners. Uh of course, in the end, you get into a different formula. The the key for me it's about franchising almost. So we rule the concepts, we rule the processes, we rule the quality, but the local uh parties that you cooperate with can also use just like a McDonald's. And that the guy running the McDonald's is not part of a McDonald's company, there they just get a formula. So that is for me something that could very well work if you want to rapidly roll out. You still create and control a process uh that gives you the same flavor everywhere, safe quality, but you actually also give opportunity to local people so to make a good, decent living.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

And my novel web house, like very centric around Frankfurt. So attracting the local talent in Frankfurt is something that you are looking at, and it's going well as far as I've far as I know, with growth with multiple projects in pipeline, perhaps. How do you see that uh for a for a web house?

SPEAKER_03 15:49

But you need to strike the right balance between what you do in-house and what you're out. Um I think what's for us really important is uh a lot of what's in the pipeline was in the pre-development process. So our relationship with governmental sources, um our relationships with the designers, with everybody around us, the landlords, etc., who create that platform for you to in the end to be able to construct a data center. That's something that we like to keep in-house. We we believe so not the design itself, but the relationship. So the so in that thing we try to strike the right balance. Of course, we will outsource a lot, we will start uh stay a small company. But um for the war on talent, um look here again. You need to look to the bigger picture because if we want to keep building data centers in the future, and not just my Nova or you guys or anybody else that's walking around here, we need to find a different structure to bring the talent to the market. That is about influencing universities, schools, trying to create different pipelines. I think that's where the war on talent is really about. The war on talent is not something that is today. The world the war on talent is a process, it's a longer-term horizon, it's something that you need to create together. So, as long as we all keep Christian in the same board, what we're doing today, we just drive up the market. That's the only thing we're doing. And next year you'll see a next report coming out and saying, Whoa, the data center market is probably one of the best paid markets in this industry. And again, the salaries most by whatever number.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

But again, I think you're fair, you're 100% right. It's about the long-term perspective for people, and but it's also about being an good employer in the sense of that people can not just get a salary with you, but also grow with the success of the company. So that's we are an entrepreneurial company, we're not stock listed. So the people in our team all can buy certain percentages. Well, not all, but most of the people can buy in key positions percentage of the project the moment it's being started against a uh normal price. But the moment we make it a success as a team, we all can piggyback on the success of that. And that is a massive driver for people to step into it, and that's not considered to be just a salary anymore. You're a co-entrepreneur, you're part of the project. So everybody in our team is willing to put extra step. We hire the best people that are fed up with the salary. They people in our team don't ask for these cars because most of them actually are self-employed. So we all work as entrepreneurs on something. So we try to do everything in the sector in a smarter, better way than just being another American company.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

I think that obviously it's my wheelhouse, I suppose, but there's um I think there's multiple challenges here. You've got the the early stage you talked about, which I think falls back on perception. People need to understand what this industry is in order to want a career in it. If they see it as a negative, they're less likely to want a career in it. So that's where our our conversation is key around what we're doing and the importance of it. And then um, when you look at today, I think we always it's other industries, you know. The the data center industry went through a period where it only wanted people with data center experience, and there weren't enough people with data centre experience.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Whereas now, but that's interesting, it's very entire from in all different industries.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Exactly now, myself coming from different industry, and and and many of the great people in this industry do, and now it is much more open, and you're seeing more people come into the industry from all different um other sectors like power, process, high-level, any high-tech engineering, and they can see the progression and the opportunity that it offers. But and then on your point, retention. We can't afford to lose people, which I think gets forgotten.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

To keep people on board, make sure that everybody's making a decent living, they can be also part of the success of the company. If you do that properly and you create the right company culture, people will say actually they will invite the friends to come over as well.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, because sometimes we talk about hiring a lot, but we don't talk about keep training the people with the exactly. It's about popular culture.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Sorry, go ahead, go ahead. Oh, yeah. But but um look, I I I agree with with um uh with what you guys said. But however, you need to think about what the new generation was. So we are two grey old man here sitting on this side of the table. You are younger, so you're lucky today. But uh and and we need to understand as well continuously that the world changes very quickly and that young people are looking for different things than probably when I was studying and when I started working. I think the beauty of having a relatively small organization at this point in time is that you can give people a real home and can create the flexibility that a lot of larger corporates can't because of the huge amount of regulations and things that they have. And as a third very important thing is you can give them the development, they can learn on the job. They work with not many layered companies, they can see what the executives do, they can see what the people next to them do, and that gives you a very strong sense of belonging. And I think next to the flexibility in working hours, working from home, and that entire discussion, I think a lot of people are looking for to learn. I mean, I think that's what these kind of companies can look for.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

And when we did our salary survey last year, the the key point that people talked about was development. Whereas I think people perceive it like your point, they think of financial. Most people don't leave their career in this industry for money, they leave for development because they can see they want they want to be developed, whether it's further in their career, they want to see their organization developing, but that's what's more important, and sometimes we focus too much on the salary.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

But Google and Google in the general um data center individual CV, and you will see how the siffling shares goes, don't we? All uh that's it on any side of the table.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

To me, there's a clear split whereby uh the the entry level, the junior folks very much focused on development, and the majority of developers, operators are giving a good platform for development. You see, there has been a big change in the industry, and it might More senior executive level, sometimes it feels a little bit like a gold rush. You see people moving from one neo cloud to the other one, to the other one. As long as you have like a hyperscaler on your CV for two or three years, you suddenly this thing things slice bread. So it's if if we can try to calm everybody down a little bit, settle down and create some continuity, that would be good. But with all these new businesses popping up, how are we going to deal with that? Because people are trying to posture talent as well, I presume.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Well, I think that's where when when you when I talk to the funds that are entering the industry, that's where they need that level of education. Yeah, like just because it says that company name on their CV doesn't mean they're the best people in the industry. And it's understanding that a lot of the um the new capital obviously doesn't necessarily have data center experience. They have probably real estate infrastructure experience or some something similar, but not data center, so they don't understand what the talent is.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

If we hire people, we don't look at the resume whether they hit all the big names, we look at the can-do mentality. Did they finish things? Did they re what are the results?

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Were they taking responsibility? And the point you touched on about entrepreneurial character, like most conversations I have for leadership, it's being entrepreneurial because this industry moves so quickly. You know, that you need agility to be successful. They don't necessarily want somebody that's you know in a box and their role, that's what I do all day, every day. That doesn't work in this industry at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And my personal working in a relatively smaller company that is very much growing and entrepreneurial. For me, people that have been sitting at the desk at a big corporate, they don't fit in our organization, they are not flexible enough or fast enough. And it works back the other way as well, doesn't it? It's all about speed, willingness, eagerness.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

I think it's hard to say if somebody fits or doesn't fit just based on that fact that you work for a large corporate. It has a lot more to do with the individual. Where are you? How do you think? Where's your flexibility?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Um, so it's it's not as black and white, I think, as we just said it is, but there is a there is a lot more to it than uh a lot of a lot of the individuals that leave those large corporates are looking for that agility because they feel like they've been too stuck in their role and they're actually saying, I'm not developing, I want more flexibility, I want agility. So no, you're you're right, it's not it's not as clear as black and white.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

There is a and I think the last point is what I wanted to make on this topic, is it's like it's on leadership. I think you need to have good managers and leaders because people often leave because their leader doesn't support them, doesn't give them the right direction, doesn't manage them on a day-to-day basis, doesn't develop them fast enough, or don't know what he or she wants. And I think that's what leaders need to do. And if you hire that and get that up and running, I think you get very far in this business.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

I fully agree. The leaders need to set the perspective, uh, they need to set the strategy of the company, they need to communicate internally perfectly, get everybody on board, and the guy and the other people in the team actually have to do real work, but the manager is actually like just like a football. It's it's it's the manager on the side trying to make the team play best. That's what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Last topic before we go to the rapid fire questions, um, and that is around third-party leases, new clients, and whatnot. So the hyperscalers have been dominating the Amsterdam, the Frankfurt market, uh, and lately we've seen a shift towards more exotic new clients entering the market. What do you see as major risk or opportunities around that? Will you stick with your traditional clients or are you venturing into the new space of international plays coming to Europe?

SPEAKER_00 25:37

It's all about risk balancing. So if you build a new site and put everything with a new cloud, and a new cloud goes up uh five uh days later, uh it was an expensive gamble today. So you have to do your due diligence on the customer. Um course, you should not put everything to a non-bankable club customer, but if you only do it the let's say the easy way, you won't go either. So it's about balancing it in a proper way between industries, a little bit of cloud, a little bit of neo clouds, uh, maybe some new cloud players from other regions entering the uh Europe. Uh yeah, our own sovereign cloud companies. I would love to have them because we're a 100% Dutch company, uh Dutch uh 100% European in that sense. So the more European sovereign cloud we can do, the better. But um, and I think it's the same for Manova, and you're also European in that sense. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Look um for me, um, do we like to stay closely connected to the largest players in the world? Of course, yes. They are at this point in time, I think the big drivers of this industry. But it's always good to keep your eyes open. So um I think there is a large second tier, tier is probably the wrong word, of companies that are looking for single tenant buildings at this point in time, which go up from 10 megawatts, 20 megawatts, and higher, which are very interesting to look at. Look, for instance, at the Chinese customers today. Yeah, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, there was no Chinese customer that won the single tenant building in Europe. Today they are, and they won that. But those customers give an up give another complication as well because these companies, uh, it's very hard to close parental guarantees with those guys. And if you don't get the parental guarantees, the banks will not finance you. So we all need to learn, we all need to figure out ways of different different ways of doing business together to make sure we're all ready for the next wave. And and um then the point of governmental sovereign clouds, that kind of industry. Look, as soon as the US is pushing Europe into the perspective that they do today, I think there was quite a good opening remark here today in uh in this um uh in this event. But um, then you will see that sovereign clouds become more and more prominent in Europe and more and more local European providers will be placed uh in front to do to take the business from those kind of people. Um on the other hand, I could counter my own argument because we see that the majority of uh sovereign clouds, all the large players are on the list of being selected. So it's it's um that's so and in the same way, why did you why did the Chinese come so big time to Europe? It's because they can't go to the United States anymore. So, globalization, the world is changing, it gives us new opportunities, but also new challenges.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

So, and one thing that I fully agree with is the education piece, and I think that what you have to focus on is not just us educating ourselves in terms of being a good developer, but also educating our clients. This is the way we can help each other, this is the way we can scale. What I see is that clients, especially the hyperscales, have become quite bullish. They want to build their own, they feel they can do everything yourself.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Oh, they have to adapt their approach because there's such a scarcity in the market. If they keep on doing this, they will be out of capacity soon because nobody likes to be treated this way anymore. Uh we actually have many customers to choose from right now. So the market has changed. It's not a bias market anymore. Uh it's a supplier, so we can actually pick our own customers that uh do things according to what we like. And I think a lot of XKs didn't get it yet. That's quite a big shift, isn't it? Yeah, when you think about it. And it takes a little some guts to to to choose that. But I think um if you're uh self um uh conscious like we are, uh we know what we're doing, we know we can rent it out to everybody. So why should I give an extremely steep discount in terms of conditions that nobody likes to have?

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah. Clear. Um let's go to the rapid fire questions. Andy, do you want to go first and ask JP some centralizing this or that options?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Okay, so quick fire questions. People power or compute power?

SPEAKER_03 30:03

People power.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Uh definitely Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

Oh, that's a tough one. Um I actually live close to Utrecht, so therefore Frankfurt.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Hypergrowth or sustainable stability. Sorry, one more time. Hyper growth or sustainable stability.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Um one doesn't really go without the other in a certain way, but um I would go for growth.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

This is we've just touched on this. Established clients or new clients?

SPEAKER_03 30:39

You need to have both.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

A long walk or a fast car? Oh for sure fast car. The Dutch or the Germans? Can't be only one. The Germans. Brownfield redevelopment or greenfield build.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Greenfield build.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

There's a theme to these ones, definitely. Bratfurst or Bitterballen. Bitterballen, of course, I am Dutch, yeah. CEO hat or HR hat. CEO hat. Final one. Waste heat to a pool or waste heat to a greenhouse.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Um I don't like swimming actually. So I think a greenhouse.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

I don't know where Peter gets his questions from.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

It's a nice little segue into uh Edgar because we're supplying a lot of green questions. Edgar, there we go. Are you ready? Switching buildings or building switches?

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Switching buildings now.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

100% Dutch owned or global capital?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Uh global capital. Liquid cooling or the water wall. Uh we already did the water wall ten years ago, so let's do the liquid cooling now.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Public support or political approval?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Uh public support.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Expand in the Netherlands or build a global platform? Uh both. An old logistics hall or a new concrete slab? Sorry, and the last one? A new concrete slab or an old logistics CO2-wise, I go for the logistics hall. Bicycles or boats? Bicycles or boats. Uh both. An AI factory or retail co-location? AI factory. Giving heat away or selling heat back? That's a nice one. Uh both. Always innovating or perfecting the current. Always innovating. Anything I don't you want to come back upon?

SPEAKER_02 32:58

I've got one more question. Going back to my point at the beginning. Data centers in space. Is this a reality or a or a conversation starter?

SPEAKER_00 33:08

What you call a data center. There are computers in space already. So what when when does it become a data center?

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Um I'm getting too old for this.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Same here. That's why I asked the question. But maybe if you bring a smartphone up in a rocket, you might have a data center as well. What is the definition of a data center?

SPEAKER_02 33:25

What is a data center? Okay, we'll end on that one.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Thank you. Uh thank you both. Thank you, Edgar Van Essen, MD Switch Data Center. Thank you, JP Anton, CEO at Manovo Webhouse. Thank you for watching.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Thank you for good interview. Thank you, thank you, Andy.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

And we'll see you at the next episode.